In Lycra (swimsuit, leotard, leggings, tights), In public...

[Like Ra]

the loss of the "real male" aesthetic/character

This is what they are doing in China, and that's why Bambi Sleep is banned there.

See here: https://www.likera.com/forum/mybb/Thread...1#pid76651

[Iniga]

the loss of the "real male" aesthetic/character

This is what they are doing in China, and that's why Bambi Sleep is banned there.

See here: https://www.likera.com/forum/mybb/Thread...1#pid76651

I'm not surprised, have read about the general issue there at least. Is a global problem currently & especially popular with populist and authoritarian movements.
Most people who visit this site are potential targets, regardless of your gender. Non-conformity to social "norms" and bronze age religious text translations & interpretations are enough.

- Don't look here, look there at "them", "they" (normally a very small minority) are your problem.
- Redefine what "they" are and incite fear and hate to fit their agenda and intended results (it does not have to reflect reality or make any sense at all logically & never does under scrutiny...)

Same old story same old song, and very effective, especially with the social media echo chambers we have today.

Don't tolerate it, at the end of the day it can effect everyone (including the general public which swallows the crap whole & without reflection).

As the pastor Martin Niemöller said, who declined to speak out early on when it would have made a difference, after surviving Dachau (short version):

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me -- And there was no one left to speak out for me.

They may not have the same "final solution" in mind, but the tactics are from the same playbook, they are destroying the rights, the livelihood and lives of people for their own personal gains.

So, I'll stop here, fairly off topic for lycra.

[Obsidian]

I am aware that memories are usually rose-tinted, but OMFG, has this world turned so regressive and toxic since the end of the 90s or what? 

I have been watching this trend quite closely, over the years.  At one time, the religious prudes truly were the problem.  But today, I see the problem coming from the militants of our own BDSM community.  These are the individuals who want to be "in your face".  They completely ignore the BDSM paradigm of "consent".  They literally force themselves and their views upon everyone around them.  They create resentment where none had existed before.  They have turned what was once fun/pleasure into political drama.  Yes, back in the 90's, the general (vanilla) public was on the verge of becoming our allies.  Fetish wear had even become a staple of mainstream sci-fi and steam-punk movies/shows.  However, since then, a small, vocal, minority has turned the public against us---with their politics, protests, public tantrums, and demands for special treatment.  Every time I see this, I face-palm.    Add to that, infuriating parents, by demanding that fetishism be taught to children in Grade School (the 90's BDSM community had a strict policy of keeping it away form anyone "under age").

This is the way that it used to be:  Back in the late 90's and early Aughts (00's), if a dungeon party ended early, a few of us would often stop at a local dive bar, to unwind (trying to drive while still in Dom headspace was like trying to drive drunk).  We would enter a bar, just like any other customers, even though we were still in full regalia!  Sure, there would be a moment of awkwardness, at first.  And perhaps, a few snide comments.  But, the conversations would eventually turn to, "How can I get my wife interested in this?", and, "The wife and I have been toying with the idea---where should we start?"  The folks in the bar would see that, during the day, we were just working stiffs, like them.  We were just more open about having fun.  Here we were, offering a bite of the forbidden fruit, without consequences!  Granted, we were pros, skilled at reading people and handling situations.  Still, these were skills that anyone could learn.

A lot of it too, is in the presentation.  For example, I have proven that a male Dom can wear a leather corset and thigh boots, and still present an unmistakably masculine vibe.  for those interested, there is an old pic of the boots in my profile (yes, I still have those boots).  If I ever get done with home repairs, I'll try to get a pic of the corset-vest, as well.

Which brings-up another observation.  I don't see folks wearing leather anymore.  I haven't seen anyone wearing a leather jacket or coat in years (other than the ones i wear).  It has been even longer since I have seen leather pants.   Moreover, leather shops seemed to have completely disappeared, here in "The States".  Is there a connection to the politics?  Purchasing leather is like buying fresh vegetables---one needs to inspect the quality and fit.  It is one of those things best done in-person (not from some catfish catalog photo on the internet).

As a final thought, I can see how this discussion has taken the original thread off-the-rails.  Ra might want to move this to its own thread, as this is a topic that really needs to be examined in-depth.

[MIWSTIUS]

As a final thought, I can see how this discussion has taken the original thread off-the-rails.  Ra might want to move this to its own thread, as this is a topic that really needs to be examined in-depth.

Thanks for the retro insights.....but yeah, my observation & social commentary did specifically pertain to the Lycra 'scene' if there ever was one.

But perhaps my observation is also a bit limited and skewed, in the sense that the toxicity I observed is mostly violently expressed  on social media. Of course, this heavily implies that the hate they spew online, they also think whenever they would see us IRL in whatever 'fetish' attire that apparently upsets their boxed-in worldview. 
The usual targets include: 
- the ever present cyclists & runners (mockingly labeled as MAMIL; middle aged men in Lycra). Hated for their scruffy unshaven look, visible frontal bulges and beer gut/muffin top belly.
- the abundance of Lululemon athleisure woman. Hated for their sheer numbers and for NOT fitting the "Elegance / Cllassy" boxes the utube fashionistas try push so fucking hard.
- the unmentioned minority Lycra wearers like me. This is guys like me and the target audience of brands like Kapow Meggings. This category is so outside the box of mainstream eyes, that they don't even get a mention, but oh boy, if we ever get seen, we receive more intense toxic flak than any of the other Lycra groups.   

And yes, I know that the masculine fashion in the 80's and 90's was also no less constricting than it is now, but I feel the wider context of the Lycra peak decade (thanks to the Aerobics and pop culture scenes) indirectly facilitated an environment where any toxic hate would always be more contained, less visible. I mean, men in Lycra 'cycling' shorts and Speedos were really not frowned upon.... until all that changed and gay & pervert stigma's banished them into a dark abyss. (Expressed very apparent in the comedy movie "Meet the parents" ) .

On a tangent regarding the leather scene:
Hmmm, I do get the impression that mainstream fashion has been dipping a bit into the leather and moto aesthetic in recent years, no?

[Obsidian]

- the ever present cyclists & runners (mockingly labeled as MAMIL; middle aged men in Lycra). Hated for their scruffy unshaven look, visible frontal bulges and beer gut/muffin top belly.

The cyclists have become hated for acting arrogant and entitled.  They have been known to vandalize cars, run-over pedestrians, and flaunt traffic laws.  They have expressed near-violent hared toward anyone not of their clique.  They have destroyed many boulevards and major thoroughfares with their demands for "bike lanes" (which they never use).  Yes, Lycra "cycle wear" has become their uniform, along with those ugly helmets, overpriced Oakley shades, and occasionally expensive cycling shoes that make a clicking sound when they walk.  I can understand not wanting to be associated with them.

On a tangent regarding the leather scene:
Hmmm, I do get the impression that mainstream fashion has been dipping a bit into the leather and moto aesthetic in recent years, no?

That may be true over in Europe, and possibly Japan.  But, not here in the U.S.  Honestly, there doesn't seem to be any "fashion" here, anymore.  People here, no longer care how they look.  Even store clerks dress like slobs while on the job.  That is our current "mainstream".  Of course, I'm not on "social media".  So, I don't see the "Hey, look at me!" crowd---unless they are so outrageous, that they get lampooned on Youtube.

[Like Ra]

The cyclists have become hated for acting arrogant and entitled.  They have been known to vandalize cars, run-over pedestrians, and flaunt traffic laws.

Or .. was that a deep sarcasm? 😉

Honestly, there doesn't seem to be any "fashion" here, anymore.  People here, no longer care how they look.

Sounds very Dutch to me... 😁

[Tinker D]

- the ever present cyclists & runners (mockingly labeled as MAMIL; middle aged men in Lycra). Hated for their scruffy unshaven look, visible frontal bulges and beer gut/muffin top belly.

The cyclists have become hated for acting arrogant and entitled.  They have been known to vandalize cars, run-over pedestrians, and flaunt traffic laws.  They have expressed near-violent hared toward anyone not of their clique.  They have destroyed many boulevards and major thoroughfares with their demands for "bike lanes" (which they never use).  Yes, Lycra "cycle wear" has become their uniform, along with those ugly helmets, overpriced Oakley shades, and occasionally expensive cycling shoes that make a clicking sound when they walk.  I can understand not wanting to be associated with them.

On a tangent regarding the leather scene:
Hmmm, I do get the impression that mainstream fashion has been dipping a bit into the leather and moto aesthetic in recent years, no?

That may be true over in Europe, and possibly Japan.  But, not here in the U.S.  Honestly, there doesn't seem to be any "fashion" here, anymore.  People here, no longer care how they look.  Even store clerks dress like slobs while on the job.  That is our current "mainstream".  Of course, I'm not on "social media".  So, I don't see the "Hey, look at me!" crowd---unless they are so outrageous, that they get lampooned on Youtube.

I’m in North California and I agree with everything you said.
These stupid arrogant Wheelies cuts across traffic, running red lights and taking over the streets like a mob.
But most of the homeless bikers are saints compared to the cyclists who think that they have more rights than the rest of us, because they are saving the planet by being green.

Arrogant Bastards. Breaking laws and the idiot cops do nothing because they are a protected species and all that rot.

[MIWSTIUS]

- the ever present cyclists & runners (mockingly labeled as MAMIL; middle aged men in Lycra). Hated for their scruffy unshaven look, visible frontal bulges and beer gut/muffin top belly.

The cyclists have become hated for acting arrogant and entitled.  They have been known to vandalize cars, run-over pedestrians, and flaunt traffic laws.  They have expressed near-violent hared toward anyone not of their clique.  They have destroyed many boulevards and major thoroughfares with their demands for "bike lanes" (which they never use).  Yes, Lycra "cycle wear" has become their uniform, along with those ugly helmets, overpriced Oakley shades, and occasionally expensive cycling shoes that make a clicking sound when they walk.  I can understand not wanting to be associated with them.

Yeah, that sounds like a USA problem. Cyclists in the Netherlands/Europe (and NO, I don't count the UK as Europe, afterall it was some narrowminded British editor who coined the term MAMIL), sports cyclists or otherwise, mostly obey traffic regulations here - thanks in part to the well engineered infrastructure/bicycle lanes.
But now that I'm in the Philippines, cyclists are not a problem here either. Public transportation drivers here however haha...

[Obsidian]

Yeah, that sounds like a USA problem. Cyclists in the Netherlands/Europe (and NO, I don't count the UK as Europe, afterall it was some narrowminded British editor who coined the term MAMIL), sports cyclists or otherwise, mostly obey traffic regulations here - thanks in part to the well engineered infrastructure/bicycle lanes.

It really depends upon the age of the city.  Most European cites were laid-out before the Industrial Revolution---when folks had to either walk or use horses.  hundreds of years later, those cities still have the same layout.  A layout designed for horses also happens to work well for bicycles.  So, the result was fairly logical.

Compare that to a more-recent city, like Los Angeles.  Much of L.A.'s infrastructure was designed before the population explosion, when the individual vehicle was seen as the wave of the future.  They once had an excellent trolley-car network (tram) that could get you anywhere in an urban area the size of Rhode Island.  But, the cost of maintenance began to skyrocket, as the system aged.  After WWII, it was decided that the individual automobile was a "more-efficient" solution.  This put the cost of fuel and maintenance on the individual commuter, rather than on the transit company.  They had no idea that the world population would triple over the next 80 years.

Then, there are transitional cities like New York---built after the Industrial Revolution, but before the Automobile.  NYC was designed around trains, trolleys (now buses), and travel by foot.  It was never intended for use by bicycles or cars.  Many of the streets were made just wide enough for deliveries by horse-drawn wagons.  "Parking" was never a consideration.

The bottom line is, cities are stuck with the infrastructure around which they were originally designed.  Small modifications and updates can be made.  But, any radical change would require a complete demolition of the city, and a start from scratch.  Trying to force a city to be anything other than its original design, only results in chaos, anger, and resentment.  It's not that folks are against change (as long as that change offers something better).  It's that you cannot get chicken soup to taste like chocolate.

[Obsidian]

OK, I fear that I may be the one responsible for getting this thread off-track.  So, I will try to get it back on the rails.  I believe that, before the interruption, the topic was leaning toward "Dressing for Pleasure", and the ability to do it in public.  Forgive me if I state the obvious:

It has been said that women do not dress-up for men---they dress-up for other women.  If true, this would definitely fall into the realm of "dressing for pleasure".  It is a somewhat complex concept, composed of 3 main parts.  The first part (and the most obvious) is how it makes you feel---more-confident, aroused, etc...  The second part is how it makes others feel, when they see you wearing it.  The third is how others react to the energy/vibe that you put-off, while wearing it.

Many folks overlook the third part.  If you are self-conscious about your attire, that is the reaction that you will get from others.  However, if you have a confident feeling of, "Top this!", you will get responses that reflect your confidence.  Sure, you will get a few strange looks.  However, almost all will be looks of envy, rather than from prejudice.  Just give them a simple, poker-face nod of acknowledgement (as opposed to self-consciously looking away).  90% of people are sick of modern society, and are looking for any excuse to get out from under its thumb.  Yes, DFP is contagious, and can spread quickly.

For the longest time, "dressing for pleasure" was something that only women were allowed to do.  Men were perpetually sentenced to the same, drab, conformist attire.  The 1960's and 70's were when modern men finally discovered the joy of DFP.  It waned a bit during the 80's, with the rise of corporate conformity.  But, it saw a great resurgence in the 90's, when BDSM gained a foothold in "The Mainstream".

Often, back in the day, when I headed Downtown in chilly weather, my wardrobe would consist of a pair of form-fitting, black-leather pants (not painted-on tight), a pair of black cowboy boots or harness boots (worn inside the pants), and a long, black-leather coat (ankle-length) with a good "cut" (tapered at the waist and flared at the bottom).  As a side note, my hair has always been quite long.  On calm days, I would wear my hair loose.  However, on windy days, my hair would be in a single braid, with a black, lambskin, "skullcap" bandana.  I was aware of the eyes that followed me, as I quietly smiled inside.  The trip on the subway (BART) was especially fun.  Female store clerks and random women on the street would start conversations with, "I love your ... !"  Even little, old ladies would approach me with those words.  This proved that DFP was working!

It is unfortunate that most modern cities (particularly in the U.S.) have turned into depressing sh*t-holes.  In the major cities here, only two types of people remain: the filthy rich and their overpaid lackeys, and the dirt poor, living on the streets or in their cars.  More and more of the Working Class and Middle Class are being driven out to the rural areas, where dynamics like DFP no longer have the population density needed to properly function.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.  Any rebuttals?